2009年2月20日星期五

初入行的困惑, audit firm’s IA 還是 commercial IA?

在香港討論區(http://www.discuss.com.hk/)不時見到朋友問,初入內審這一行應先加入會計師行(audit firms) 還是商業機構 (commercial firms)。雖然我從未在會計師行從事過內審工作,但我個人認為,如果打算在內審這一行有好發展的話,加入商業機構是首選。坦白說,不論四大會計師行或者2nd tier的會計師行,其內審工作不會太深入,到客戶那裡工作幾個星期甚至幾個月,我實在看不到可以在這短時間內能幫助企業解決內控的問題。內審是一個持續的改善過程,不花上數年時間根本不可能有顯著的成效。況且需要找會計師行進行內審的客戶,很大可能自身連內審部門也沒有,他們的規模有多大,管理層對改善內控的態度有多積極,能在那裡學習到什麼就可想而知。

很多人誤以為內審是Problem Finder (問題發現者,即係“麻煩友”) ,但高層次的內審應該是 Problem Solver (問題解決者,即係“好幫手”) 。幫助企業解決問題才是內審的主要工作。要成為Problem Solver 並不容易,試想想,如果你對企業的行業環境,管理文化,制度,運作及系統等沒有很深很透徹的認識和了解,你從何向管理層提出良好並可行的改善建議?幫助企業解決內控問題不是一時三刻可以完成,有系統地進行至少也要幾年甚至數年才能完成,而且外在及內在環境不停地變化,解決了的問題可能之後重新出現或產生新的問題,所以要訓練自己成為一位出色的 Problem Solver,我認為最佳的學習環境就是商業機構,例如製造業,多元化企業,銀行等,而政府或某些機構也是上好的學習地方。因為在這裡,初入行的朋友才能學習如何有系統地幫助企業解決問題。另一個好處就是有機會參與專項調查,舞弊調查等,因這些大多涉及機密資料或工作性質較敏感,很少企業願意聘請外人來進行的。綜合以上幾點,我認為在這環境下學到的內審知識及技巧才會較全面。

文首曾提及過,我從未在會計師行從事過內審工作,以上的只是我的個人感受及意見而已,如果有朋友認為我所講的不對,懇請指正。

(後記: 關於 audit firm 的 IA工作,在另一文章《 對audit firm’s IA的補充》有一詳細的補充)

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24 則留言:

匿名 說...

上次被另一個匿名既朋友串"如果是真..你見到個間會計師樓真係冇咩生意!"

但我是做一間有好多生意既會計師樓.據我IA既同事吐既苦水,他們的確是做proposal多,出job少.好多時候都是借給EA,而唔係出IA job.

會計師樓IA本來就是少生意,個位匿名既朋友唔知道就唔好扮曬野啦.

Erica 說...

Hi Bittermelon, thanks for your sharing, it's very useful!

I would like to ask, how do you deliver your audit findings without being very nitty-gritty. i.e. so that colleagues will not find you picking on small things only?

Bittermelon 說...

Hi Erica, thanks for your support. How do i deliver my audit findings? Haha, an interesting topic. I will discuss it in the coming article 《內審人如何與其他部門同事相處》. Thx ^_^

Bittermelon 說...

My blog has created since 12 Feb and the hit rate reached 1000 during these 9 days. I must say thank you to all of you for your support!
^_^

Ebenezer 說...

Hi, Bittermelon! 在 HK Discuss 常見你,終於喜見老兄出了自己的Blog了。

很欣賞師兄曾說過很喜歡IA這一行! By the way, 希望除了在 HK Discuss 外,在這裡也可索到 Bittermelon 師兄所過的料!

Bittermelon 說...

Hi Ebenezer, 多謝你的支持.剛在你的blog內看到關於英雄牌的文章,勾起我小時候的回憶...已留言在那裡,hehe ^_^

匿名 說...

Hi, Bittermelon!很高興在這看到很多內審的好文章,十分有用!

我是在澳門的小銀行做內審的,剛入行一年多,好像能學的不是太有系統及未夠全面。又未找到新的內審工作機會,感覺幾年後我的經驗,技巧和知識等都會比同年資的內審弱,更怕學壞手勢。請問能否給我點建議彌補這方面的不足,增加將來的競爭力?

匿名 說...

真非常期待《內審人如何與其他部門同事相處》,因為小弟發覺每次同ADUITEE開會都好難可以說服人的同時,又可以唔傷同事之間和氣. Bittermelon兄,是否有更多說話技巧要注意呢?

若缺齋老人 說...

苦瓜兄:

講就咁講,但想當年小弟要同公司IA交戰前,簡直係The Longest Day前德軍既貓樣!

小弟後生時工作好雜,連馬會Marketing(唔係你買馬時見既part time,係HQ內搞搞震既)都做過,仲記得當年IA將到前我地幾個學過會計既如臨大敵,將所有佢可能睇到既野檢查一次有咩痛腳,當一來到時似到十足十諾曼第灘頭 - 對方一露面、郁一郁都可以令我方防軍心跳加速,而得一個平底鑊車埋個IA頭上! XD

莫講多數IA根本是以對抗心態而來,就算好似老哥你話一心要做Problem Solver都冇幾多人肯相信! =P

Bittermelon 說...

Hi 10:49 留言的那位匿名好友,正如中小企一樣,小銀行不一定沒有東西可以學習,就像「三人行必有吾師」的道理一樣,只要你多加留意一定會有所得著的。我未做過銀行,但也做過中小企,這類公司如何在大公司的壓迫下生存,單是他們這些生存之道就值得學習。另外,銀行的運作需要依賴IT系統,我認為報考CISA對你的事業及知識會有一定的幫助。還有,銀行需要符合很多法例,熟悉相關法例的要求及銀行在這方面的實務是怎樣也會另你的競爭力有所提升。希望我的意見可以幫到你。

Bittermelon 說...

Hi 星期六 上午12:06留言的那位匿名好友,《內審人如何與其他部門同事相處》已發表了,請多多指教。至於說話技巧,其實我是一個不太善於說話的人,不過我的經驗是開會或討論時一定要做到對事不對人,而且不要表現出不耐煩,就當你自己是一位幼稚園老師那樣好了。

Bittermelon 說...

齋老,
上一代的IA是何等威武,更何況是馬會!馬會IA曾是我夢寐以求的地方,可惜...

上一代IA的approach和現在不一樣,上一代的做法傾向於威嚇,先給你下馬威,讓那些想出術的知道會有人眅住,不要亂來。我這一代就可憐了,不但不能威嚇,還要求人家合作讓我們來幫你,哈哈.

匿名 說...

苦瓜兄:

苦瓜炒牛肉都好好味!只要喜歡就可以

好多人都應該跟你揾食,做IA,不過是政府,小心你D下屬走。Y世代嗎?HE!HE!

其實,無論X或Y世代,都不想年年轉工,有D工,好似零三年出來,得三四千多,一年後轉都得六七千,再一份八九千,再轉一年後才過萬,留回公司又真不加比你,周圍以及自己都有太多這類人,所以,會計人有怨氣,又成日轉工,IA可能會少D情況

我都會一試,不過不會太大希望,事關BIG BIG 人才頂瓜瓜.

匿名 說...

Hi,
I'm undergrad student in U.S. and my major is accounting. I want to be a CPA, CIA, and CFE. I very interest in forensic accounting but no experience before. Thus, I am going to have internship next summer to gain some auditing experience. That will be my first real work experience for me!!! I really like your blog, hope you can write or tell us more about your work experience..And I have a question: If I earnthe B.S. and MSA degree in accounting, and earn the CPA, CIA, CFE and have 5-7 years experience, do I need to take the QP or ACCA or hkicpa exam before I work in hk?
Thanks, keep posting !!
good luck in future!!

Bittermelon 說...

Hi 匿名,
Take QP or not not, it depends on whether you would practise in Hong kong. If you plan to become a CPA (Practising) in Hong Kong, you must be a member of HKICPA, so you have to take the QP exam. If you have no such plan, any accounting qualification such as ACCA, AICPA etc is enough for you to seek a job here.
^^

匿名 說...

I think I would like to take the QP since America and HK have different taxation and laws,by studying these it would help for my job....^^ but by the time, I will be 35!!! hahahaha
Oh by the way, since I will have an internship next year, would you mind tell me what will I do during internship in auditing? I'm so nervse because I never have a experience before and I don't know what should I do if I need to meet the clients and explain things...
thanks alot!!!

Bittermelon 說...

Hi Anonymous,
35 is not a problem.
For your internship next year, you said that you will do auditing. Is it external or internal auditing? You know, ea and ia are quite differet.

匿名 說...

it's external...

匿名 說...

Hi Bittermelon,

Your blog is really interesting and supportive especially for new IA like me.

This month is my 9th month as IA in a company which involved in automotive.

I found that our auditing cover wide range of areas. Audit coverage is depending on the experience of auditors than purely standard procedures.

Sometimes even auditees queried why audit findings are not consistent (due to auditors look at different perspective).

Moreover, auditees analyzed few years audit findings and started to query auditor credibility (they have started their own audit on auditors).

I felt uncertain of our role as an IA and what I should do to regain auditees confident.

Bittermelon 說...

Hi 匿名:
Welcome to our IA profession. Nice to meet you here.

Consistency of audit finding is very important when we are dealing with auditee. Therefore, before we conduct audit, we should carefully review all previous audit reports.

Different auditors have different views are normal. For a same issue, auditor A may treat it as finding but auditor B may not. To cope with this problem, Audit Manager should take the role to synchronize auditors' view. He/she should have to determine it is finding or not. we called this practice as "定調".

To regain auditee confident, there are many things can do. You can refer to my article "如何說服 Auditee" if you see it yet. The link is as follow:

http://bittermelon2009.blogspot.com/2009/07/auditee.html

If you have any questions, you are welcome to leave message or write an email to me.

匿名 說...

Hi, Bittermelon
我在煩惱好不好轉去IA呢個field
我本身做左2年半audit
近呢幾個月先轉左去間百幾人既local firm但入左一組好差既組
呢行已經做到越黎越灰
轉big4/2nd tier又轉唔到
雖然以我qualification見IA都幾難
但諗緊好無開始試下apply
呢一行將來條路又會點行?
最近見到有個adv.請IA
間公司係做trading
但job duties係 review and correct accounting entries, manage month end closing, prepare monthly financial analysis report, handle other ad hoc assignment
我想問IA是做這些嗎?
因為我覺得似accountant多...
唔好意思
問題太多
thx!!!

Bittermelon 說...

Hi匿名君:
單睇job duties 真係唔似係IA工,不知道你的資歷如何,但如果見到有IA job Ad,我覺得應該試下。

mygamebest 說...

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匿名 說...

Hi,

I just found that there is someone with long experience in IA. I'm so happy ! I have been working as IA for 3 years already. I have been working as a external auditor in Big 4 for almost 3 years before. And I should say, it gave me the advantages over other audit firm for being interviewed. After working for 3 years as Internal Auditor, I think our post is actually a very important post! It can do a lot to help a company, just my company is not that big and not that complicated in business. So I think my experience is not in a exposure that I would expect. I think it is good to start with the audit firm's IA. And in HK, I think GT is famous for that. Many big companies ask them to do it while they use Big 4 as external auditor. Well, just share this much! I should check out the articles here

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